In this episode of Transform Your Workplace, Matt Norman, author of Lead with Influence, discusses the art and science of influence. He shares how intentionality, trust-building, and vulnerability are key to creating meaningful connections, even in the absence of formal authority. Ultimately, influence isn’t about control — it’s about showing up with consistency and care. Listen in to learn how to flex your influence muscle by leading with intention and vision.
GUEST AT A GLANCE
Matt Norman is the President & CEO of Norman & Associates, where he helps Fortune 100 companies, non-profits, and entrepreneurial firms transform employee and client engagement. Recognized for his impact, he has been named in Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal’s 40 Under Forty and the Minnesota Business’s (Real) Power 50.
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GROWING THE MUSCLE OF INFLUENCE
When it comes to the psychology of influence, our guest describes it as both an art and a science. “Some people think we’re born with it,” Norman explains, but learning the psychological process of influence felt like a major revelation early in his career.
Building this muscle wasn’t always easy. As someone “fundamentally more introverted,” Norman had what felt like a steeper hill to climb. But with consistent practice and being “intentional in all of [his] interactions,” he found that influence over his circle became much more natural. For Norman, it’s about knowing the steps, showing up deliberately, and continually flexing that muscle to make influence repeatable.
PODCAST EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
Competing Priorities
“I think a lot of us can relate to this feeling of just constantly trying to have these influential relationships with people or maybe call it politics across our organization — people that have competing priorities. We don’t have authority over them. We can’t make them do anything. We have lots of other things that are clouding our thoughts, and so it’s just hard.”
Finding the Root Cause
“I’m reminded of this story of two lifeguards watching people swimming at a beach on a river, and suddenly, one of the lifeguards notices that someone is flailing in the water, screaming for help. Fortunately, this lifeguard has a number of flotation devices and throws a flotation device into this person and rescues them. But then more people start coming down the river flailing, screaming for help. Now, fortunately again, the lifeguard has a tall stack of flotation devices — just keeps throwing them in and is feeling good about himself because he’s rescuing all these people. Until, finally, another lifeguard comes over and says, ‘Are you curious why so many people are falling in the river or not swimming? Should one of us run upstream?’ And that ‘running upstream,’ I think, is the deep work […] which is ‘How do I go figure out what the root causes of this are?’”
It’s About Intention
“I recently made a commitment to a specific relationship that was important to me, and some tension had developed in the relationship. I knew that I needed to change the pattern […], so I approached it with more intentionality and thoughtfulness. I had named that relationship in my mind. I said, ‘When I’m with this person, if I want a different result, I need to be more intentional.’ So when I’m with that person now, alarms sort of go off in my mind to say, ‘You said this was a relationship that you were prioritizing. You were going to be more intentional.’ So, be ready. I don’t know that we’re that intentional about most of our relationships — we just sort of react to them.”
Leaning into Vulnerability
“The word “deposits” comes into my mind — relationship deposits. It’s like we have these capital accounts in our relationships, and are we making these little deposits? Certainly, some of those deposits happen by doing nice things for other people, being generous, and showing appreciation. Things like that are all ways to cultivate more trust. But I think it’s rare in our work culture, political culture, and social culture that we proactively foster that level of vulnerability.”
Taking Accountability
“In his book A Hidden Wholeness, Parker Palmer compares human beings to wild animals. He says that wild animals are always scanning their environment, looking for any threat to their survival. If they hear a branch break, someone steps on it, or someone approaches talking too loudly, wild animals will go into hiding. Human beings do the same thing. We don’t necessarily break branches in our team meetings, but we do talk over people. We don’t acknowledge something that somebody said. We stay off-camera in a virtual meeting. We multitask rather than making eye contact with people. There are all these little things that we do that send people into hiding, that make them, like wild animals, go into self-protect mode. Whether they consciously acknowledge this thought or not, they’re thinking, ‘I’m not sure this person really values me.’”
Three Different Perspectives
“Someone walks up to a construction site and sees three people working on the same activity. They ask the first person, ‘What are you working on?’ That person replies, ‘Oh, can’t you see? I’m laying bricks.’ They walk up to the second person, who is doing the same thing as the first, and ask, ‘What are you working on?’ That person responds, ‘I’m building a wall.’ Then, they approach the third person, who is also doing the same activity, and ask, ‘What are you working on?’ That person has a different answer: ‘We are building a palace.’”
“Three people, all doing the same activity, but with three different ways of thinking about and talking about their work. I think it reveals this reality: so often, we’re very myopically focused on the bricks that we’re laying. […] The language of the third bricklayer — ‘we’re building this palace’ — implies vision, first of all. It asks, ‘What are we working towards?’ But it also implies that there are many stakeholders involved. Palaces aren’t just built by masonry professionals — they require plumbers, HVAC contractors, architects, and many others, each contributing their unique expertise.”
LEARN MORE
Discover actionable insights from Matt Norman’s book Lead with Influence: A Proven Process to Lead Without Authority — available on Amazon or wherever books are sold — then visit MattNorman.com or DaleCarnegie.com for more helpful leadership resources.